Sat Oct 30 2021 12:34:17 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@wallofhate.com>

I'm not sure what I meant to say... 

I don't think eugenics is inherently amoral either. It can be good *or* bad, depending on the situation. 

Murdering it when it still has gills and a tail isn't the same as a late term abortion. Part of the moral dilemma here is absolutely we don't have any real idea of when it goes from being something more like a frog or a mosquito to being something we would recognizably call *human* in its concept of self... in sentience and self-awareness. 

Killing a living thing is not inherently horrific. We do it every day to eat. We do it every time we walk, or drive, nearly. I was thinking about THAT just a few nights ago when a beautiful butterfly decided to be right where the front bumper of my car was. Its life was not worth the risk of trying to avoid hitting it. I get it that your argument is that a human is "different". But... is it? And at what point is a mass of dividing cells a *human*? There is a value of belief and faith in the morality of that - and I think it oversteps the bounds of our Government to allow someone else's basically *religiously or philosophically informed beliefs* about when that life is *human* to limit the freedom of another person's actions. 

That is... regardless of why you believe human life begins at conception - it is disputable that this is the case - absolutely. I'm not saying that I *don't* agree that it begins at conception - but I can absolutely see why other people with different philosophies or religious backgrounds than mine disagree. 

If we had lots of different planets to let the low odds people mine spice on out in the desert - it would be OK. 

We have to share this planet and suffer the consequences of ever growing numbers of low odds people fucking it up for EVERYONE. 

Yes, it is the same.  It's a human.  Killing a human is inherently horrific.  It is different because it's our same species.  The point at which a mass of dividing cells is a human is the point at which a thing with human DNA begins dividing cells.

"and I think it oversteps the bounds of our Government to allow someone else's basically *religiously or philosophically informed beliefs* about when that life is *human* to limit the freedom of another person's actions."

LOL this is very funny because all ethics are religious or philosophical beliefs that we use to inform what government is allowed to do, which inherently limits the freedom of another's actions.  I don't understand why you or anyone ever make this argument.  It's the most pure anarchist statement people can make, but then they don't want to overthrow the government.

That is... regardless of why you believe human life begins at conception - it is disputable that this is the case - absolutely. I'm not saying that I *don't* agree that it begins at conception - but I can absolutely see why other people with different philosophies or religious backgrounds than mine disagree. 

Sure.  Lots of people disagree, but most people say stupid shit like "follow the science" and the science is indisputable that this organism is human.  It seems ridiculous to say otherwise.  It's not a whale.

The world needs more fuckups fucking it up for everyone.  People are disgustingly complacent these days.  Deregulate everything and let Darwin do his job.

Why does it being our own species make it more horrific than killing something from a different species? Specifically. You've made a claim as if it is factual without any supporting argument. 

So, the cancer inside your pancreas is a mass of dividing cells with human DNA. Is it inherently horrific to kill that? 

I do not believe that morality is absolutely derived from religious belief of theological belief. Philosophy is ambiguous enough to not really matter in the scope of this discussion - but ultimately, humans appear to be innately empathetic and empathic, with a sense of justice, fairness, and right and wrong, with or without religion. We're not the only animal that displays this. Dogs know when they've been cheated, and they know when they've done something that isn't "right". Did God give them their code of conduct, too? 

A whale isn't a whale when it is a couple of cells inside its mother's womb, either. At some point, shortly before it exits the womb to swim by itself, it is a whale... but there is a point where it is NOT recognizably a whale *except* at the level of the DNA code that says this is what it will become. I imagine, if sex is determined later in pregnancy in all mammals like it is with humans, the whale isn't even a BOY whale or a GIRL whale... which, to my point, means it is NOT fully formed as what you're calling it yet. 

Maybe that should be the point where we say, "Nope, no abortions after THAT point..." 


Does it have a dick? Does it have a vagina? Too late. Carry it to term. NOW it is *human*. Before that, it was an acrogenous protolump of protein - but now we know its gender, it is human. 

 

Sun Oct 31 2021 23:58:14 MST from TheDave

  

Yes, it is the same.  It's a human.  Killing a human is inherently horrific.  It is different because it's our same species.  The point at which a mass of dividing cells is a human is the point at which a thing with human DNA begins dividing cells.

"and I think it oversteps the bounds of our Government to allow someone else's basically *religiously or philosophically informed beliefs* about when that life is *human* to limit the freedom of another person's actions."

LOL this is very funny because all ethics are religious or philosophical beliefs that we use to inform what government is allowed to do, which inherently limits the freedom of another's actions.  I don't understand why you or anyone ever make this argument.  It's the most pure anarchist statement people can make, but then they don't want to overthrow the government.

That is... regardless of why you believe human life begins at conception - it is disputable that this is the case - absolutely. I'm not saying that I *don't* agree that it begins at conception - but I can absolutely see why other people with different philosophies or religious backgrounds than mine disagree. 

Sure.  Lots of people disagree, but most people say stupid shit like "follow the science" and the science is indisputable that this organism is human.  It seems ridiculous to say otherwise.  It's not a whale.

The world needs more fuckups fucking it up for everyone.  People are disgustingly complacent these days.  Deregulate everything and let Darwin do his job.

For the same reason that eating meat is fine and cannibalism isn't.

Cancer cells aren't a biologically distinct person.

Yes.

Yes it is a whale.  I didn't call it fully formed and you know better than to put words in my mouth.  It's a whale, not a gerbil.

Carry it to term period.  You put it in there, you deal with it.

Tue Nov 02 2021 16:08:22 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@wallofhate.com>

Why does it being our own species make it more horrific than killing something from a different species? Specifically. You've made a claim as if it is factual without any supporting argument. 

So, the cancer inside your pancreas is a mass of dividing cells with human DNA. Is it inherently horrific to kill that? 

I do not believe that morality is absolutely derived from religious belief of theological belief. Philosophy is ambiguous enough to not really matter in the scope of this discussion - but ultimately, humans appear to be innately empathetic and empathic, with a sense of justice, fairness, and right and wrong, with or without religion. We're not the only animal that displays this. Dogs know when they've been cheated, and they know when they've done something that isn't "right". Did God give them their code of conduct, too? 

A whale isn't a whale when it is a couple of cells inside its mother's womb, either. At some point, shortly before it exits the womb to swim by itself, it is a whale... but there is a point where it is NOT recognizably a whale *except* at the level of the DNA code that says this is what it will become. I imagine, if sex is determined later in pregnancy in all mammals like it is with humans, the whale isn't even a BOY whale or a GIRL whale... which, to my point, means it is NOT fully formed as what you're calling it yet. 

Maybe that should be the point where we say, "Nope, no abortions after THAT point..." 


Does it have a dick? Does it have a vagina? Too late. Carry it to term. NOW it is *human*. Before that, it was an acrogenous protolump of protein - but now we know its gender, it is human. 

 

Sun Oct 31 2021 23:58:14 MST from TheDave

  

Yes, it is the same.  It's a human.  Killing a human is inherently horrific.  It is different because it's our same species.  The point at which a mass of dividing cells is a human is the point at which a thing with human DNA begins dividing cells.

"and I think it oversteps the bounds of our Government to allow someone else's basically *religiously or philosophically informed beliefs* about when that life is *human* to limit the freedom of another person's actions."

LOL this is very funny because all ethics are religious or philosophical beliefs that we use to inform what government is allowed to do, which inherently limits the freedom of another's actions.  I don't understand why you or anyone ever make this argument.  It's the most pure anarchist statement people can make, but then they don't want to overthrow the government.

That is... regardless of why you believe human life begins at conception - it is disputable that this is the case - absolutely. I'm not saying that I *don't* agree that it begins at conception - but I can absolutely see why other people with different philosophies or religious backgrounds than mine disagree. 

Sure.  Lots of people disagree, but most people say stupid shit like "follow the science" and the science is indisputable that this organism is human.  It seems ridiculous to say otherwise.  It's not a whale.

The world needs more fuckups fucking it up for everyone.  People are disgustingly complacent these days.  Deregulate everything and let Darwin do his job.

 

Eating meat doesn't generally have pathological problems. Eating HUMAN meat does for some reason. I did some research on this. It is basically like mad cow disease. Taboos arise because of negative consequences. The negative consequence of cannibalism is uncontrollable shakes and eventual death. NATURE doesn't want us to eat one another. If it did, it would be moral. It doesn't, so it isn't.


But in a pinch, on a desert island, after I got done fucking monkeys and coconuts - let me be clear... 

You would probably eventually end up on the menu. In both ways. What do I have to lose, and I should fuck and eat you before you fuck and eat me. But, I'm probably amoral. Which is why I would likely have a satisfying fuck and then a full belly... first. And when I got rescued a year later... my story would be that your bones... knife nicks and all... died of dysentery. Just like in the game. 


If you're right, I did you a favor - you're now populating a planet with a harem full of virgins (that is what WE teach that you teach, I dunno if it is true...) 


If you're wrong, I did MYSELF a favor. I got some protein, and so did you. 


Natural law. 

A not-fully formed whale is not a whale. It is a zygote, and killing it before it is a fully formed whale is not whale-i-cide, it is an early term potential whale abortion for the good of the pod. 


We probably averted a mass beaching due to whale overpopulation. Look at what good people we are! We saved the whales, by killing the *right* proto-whale before it could ruin it for the other whales! They love us! 

I put it there, I'll deal with it. If you won't allow me to *humanely* and safely deal with it - I'll kick a bitch in the stomach, feed her a meal that will cause a miscarriage, Bend a hanger into a hook. This *is* what happens. It doesn't *stop* it. It makes people take more terrible alternative courses of action. 

Fri Nov 12 2021 20:32:09 MST from TheDave

For the same reason that eating meat is fine and cannibalism isn't.

Cancer cells aren't a biologically distinct person.

Yes.

Yes it is a whale.  I didn't call it fully formed and you know better than to put words in my mouth.  It's a whale, not a gerbil.

Carry it to term period.  You put it in there, you deal with it.

 

Tue Nov 02 2021 16:08:22 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@wallofhate.com>

Why does it being our own species make it more horrific than killing something from a different species? Specifically. You've made a claim as if it is factual without any supporting argument. 

So, the cancer inside your pancreas is a mass of dividing cells with human DNA. Is it inherently horrific to kill that? 

I do not believe that morality is absolutely derived from religious belief of theological belief. Philosophy is ambiguous enough to not really matter in the scope of this discussion - but ultimately, humans appear to be innately empathetic and empathic, with a sense of justice, fairness, and right and wrong, with or without religion. We're not the only animal that displays this. Dogs know when they've been cheated, and they know when they've done something that isn't "right". Did God give them their code of conduct, too? 

A whale isn't a whale when it is a couple of cells inside its mother's womb, either. At some point, shortly before it exits the womb to swim by itself, it is a whale... but there is a point where it is NOT recognizably a whale *except* at the level of the DNA code that says this is what it will become. I imagine, if sex is determined later in pregnancy in all mammals like it is with humans, the whale isn't even a BOY whale or a GIRL whale... which, to my point, means it is NOT fully formed as what you're calling it yet. 

Maybe that should be the point where we say, "Nope, no abortions after THAT point..." 


Does it have a dick? Does it have a vagina? Too late. Carry it to term. NOW it is *human*. Before that, it was an acrogenous protolump of protein - but now we know its gender, it is human. 

 

Sun Oct 31 2021 23:58:14 MST from TheDave

  

Yes, it is the same.  It's a human.  Killing a human is inherently horrific.  It is different because it's our same species.  The point at which a mass of dividing cells is a human is the point at which a thing with human DNA begins dividing cells.

"and I think it oversteps the bounds of our Government to allow someone else's basically *religiously or philosophically informed beliefs* about when that life is *human* to limit the freedom of another person's actions."

LOL this is very funny because all ethics are religious or philosophical beliefs that we use to inform what government is allowed to do, which inherently limits the freedom of another's actions.  I don't understand why you or anyone ever make this argument.  It's the most pure anarchist statement people can make, but then they don't want to overthrow the government.

That is... regardless of why you believe human life begins at conception - it is disputable that this is the case - absolutely. I'm not saying that I *don't* agree that it begins at conception - but I can absolutely see why other people with different philosophies or religious backgrounds than mine disagree. 

Sure.  Lots of people disagree, but most people say stupid shit like "follow the science" and the science is indisputable that this organism is human.  It seems ridiculous to say otherwise.  It's not a whale.

The world needs more fuckups fucking it up for everyone.  People are disgustingly complacent these days.  Deregulate everything and let Darwin do his job.

 

 

Sun Nov 14 2021 02:25:05 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@wallofhate.com>

Eating meat doesn't generally have pathological problems. Eating HUMAN meat does for some reason. I did some research on this. It is basically like mad cow disease. Taboos arise because of negative consequences. The negative consequence of cannibalism is uncontrollable shakes and eventual death. NATURE doesn't want us to eat one another. If it did, it would be moral. It doesn't, so it isn't.


But in a pinch, on a desert island, after I got done fucking monkeys and coconuts - let me be clear... 

You would probably eventually end up on the menu. In both ways. What do I have to lose, and I should fuck and eat you before you fuck and eat me. But, I'm probably amoral. Which is why I would likely have a satisfying fuck and then a full belly... first. And when I got rescued a year later... my story would be that your bones... knife nicks and all... died of dysentery. Just like in the game. 


If you're right, I did you a favor - you're now populating a planet with a harem full of virgins (that is what WE teach that you teach, I dunno if it is true...) 


If you're wrong, I did MYSELF a favor. I got some protein, and so did you. 


Natural law. 

A not-fully formed whale is not a whale. It is a zygote, and killing it before it is a fully formed whale is not whale-i-cide, it is an early term potential whale abortion for the good of the pod. 


We probably averted a mass beaching due to whale overpopulation. Look at what good people we are! We saved the whales, by killing the *right* proto-whale before it could ruin it for the other whales! They love us! 

 

I put it there, I'll deal with it. If you won't allow me to *humanely* and safely deal with it - I'll kick a bitch in the stomach, feed her a meal that will cause a miscarriage, Bend a hanger into a hook. This *is* what happens. It doesn't *stop* it. It makes people take more terrible alternative courses of action. 

I don't believe that you believe this course of argumentation.  I think you're enjoying it because arguing is fun and you'd never eat a person.  I'm more likely to resort to cannibalism than you are.

A whale zygote is still a whale.  Killing it is whaleicide.

Dealing with it in a horrible manner is likely to land you in prison.

Oh, no... in a survival situation... I'm eating first, and I'm getting the prime cuts. I would have been the fattest member of the Donner party to survive. Maybe the only one. 

It isn't high on my priority list to try long pork - but if it is between that and obvious death - 

There are a lot of societal values I'm willing to put aside. 

Prison is just how society enforces the arbitrary agreements on morality. Without those arbitrary limits - the strong would simply take what they want - and for most of human history, even to the present - that is pretty much the case. 

The SMART learn how to get the strong to take what they want in return for a share. That has been going on for a long time, too. 


So... not being the strongest or the smartest, I kind of like society's limits on behavior - it gives me a fighting chance... and that is what society is about... all the AVERAGE banding together so that they exist in large enough numbers to resist the tyranny of the strongest and smartest (who are the smallest part of society, at any period of society). 

I mean, in that sense, the collectivists are right - as soon as we started forming into tribes, clans, villages, towns, cities - we *became* collectivists of a sort. 

And really... when the SMART figure out how to enlist the STRONG to oppress people... that is a collectivist bargain, too. 

Mon Nov 29 2021 21:00:11 MST from TheDave

 

Sun Nov 14 2021 02:25:05 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@wallofhate.com>

Eating meat doesn't generally have pathological problems. Eating HUMAN meat does for some reason. I did some research on this. It is basically like mad cow disease. Taboos arise because of negative consequences. The negative consequence of cannibalism is uncontrollable shakes and eventual death. NATURE doesn't want us to eat one another. If it did, it would be moral. It doesn't, so it isn't.


But in a pinch, on a desert island, after I got done fucking monkeys and coconuts - let me be clear... 

You would probably eventually end up on the menu. In both ways. What do I have to lose, and I should fuck and eat you before you fuck and eat me. But, I'm probably amoral. Which is why I would likely have a satisfying fuck and then a full belly... first. And when I got rescued a year later... my story would be that your bones... knife nicks and all... died of dysentery. Just like in the game. 


If you're right, I did you a favor - you're now populating a planet with a harem full of virgins (that is what WE teach that you teach, I dunno if it is true...) 


If you're wrong, I did MYSELF a favor. I got some protein, and so did you. 


Natural law. 

A not-fully formed whale is not a whale. It is a zygote, and killing it before it is a fully formed whale is not whale-i-cide, it is an early term potential whale abortion for the good of the pod. 


We probably averted a mass beaching due to whale overpopulation. Look at what good people we are! We saved the whales, by killing the *right* proto-whale before it could ruin it for the other whales! They love us! 

 

I put it there, I'll deal with it. If you won't allow me to *humanely* and safely deal with it - I'll kick a bitch in the stomach, feed her a meal that will cause a miscarriage, Bend a hanger into a hook. This *is* what happens. It doesn't *stop* it. It makes people take more terrible alternative courses of action. 

 

I don't believe that you believe this course of argumentation.  I think you're enjoying it because arguing is fun and you'd never eat a person.  I'm more likely to resort to cannibalism than you are.

A whale zygote is still a whale.  Killing it is whaleicide.

Dealing with it in a horrible manner is likely to land you in prison.

This thread has drifted a bit. I guess not enough interesting happening in Russia in the last year.

It wouldn't be Citadel if it didn't wander all over the place like a drunk on the interstate, before finally crashing. :D 

Tue Apr 11 2023 21:32:02 MST from papa

This thread has drifted a bit. I guess not enough interesting happening in Russia in the last year.